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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:24 pm 
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Cesar, you must be joking. It's hard taking you seriously. Even after most of Bawer's key claims in his article have been proven false, you still choose to "stick to the Bawer piece" and "listen to both sides". It's like listening to the millions of poorly educated, hard-headed islamophobes Europe is full of right now.

Claiming that Muslims pose a threat to Europe and to "mankind", reminds me of something Lloyd deMause said in an interview about Adolf Hitler. deMause said he found it extremely naïve to believe that Hitler and his gang of thugs would ever have stood a chance of getting away with obtaining world domination. The so-called "global threat" posed by a relatively small amount of fundamentalist Muslims to-day, is parallell to that of the third reich, only much smaller. How are they going to obtain "world domination"? By convincing us that Islam is the way to go, and talking us into converting? By forcing us to convert? By waging war or military coup? I simply don't see how this is even faintly plausible.

I wonder what Lloyd deMause's position is on the so-called "Muslim threat"!

If someone wears T-shirts claiming muslims will rule Sweden, or any other country, thirty years from now (which I've yet to see), does that justify stigmatizing (and hating) all muslims? It is the West's increasing hatred and hostility against Islam and the Muslim world that poses the biggest threat to world peace. In Europe it has clear resemblances to the German people's hatred against the Jews in the 1930's.

Apart from being political, the vast islamophobia we witness to-day from people like David Horowitz, Bill O’Reilly, Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, Michelle Malkin, Bruce Bawer (whom I didn't even think Cesar Tort was comfortable being compared with), and millions of others, is, in my opinion, more likely a psychological phenomenon (finding a scapegoat to pick on and use as poison container) than being heroic whistleblowing about a real threat.

Muslims have their flaws, but so do we (the "superior psychoclass"). At least most muslim women stay at home with their little kids. What's so "superior" about sending our one-year-olds, and even younger sons and daughters, away to institutions like day care centers and pre-school in an increasing, escalating rate, like we westerners do?

Tom.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:17 pm 
Tom,

I was tempted to respond point by point but I refrained myself. I must ask, instead, if you did indeed read the article and the responses (Bawer, by the way, has not been refuted, at least not in what he says in his book, which I have read, and next month his next book on Europe's islamization is forthcoming).

Nonetheless, I will respond to the claim that we are "stigmatizing (and hating) all muslims". This is of course nonsense. None of the authors I have read has said that: which makes me to wonder, again, if any of you have stayed at the court-room every time that the prosecutor speaks (i.e., have any of you read their articles and/or books --or not?).


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 9:15 am 
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Cesar, I think it's clear that Bawer doesn't know how to do research as most of his statements are proven false. If he or anyone continues to claim false statements as truths, then it's a waste of time discussing further.

And how does an inferior psychoclass defeat a superior psychoclass? Isn't that against all natural laws, and against the statistical graphic you showed? Isn't a superior psychoclass there to help the inferior ones? Aren't stronger people supposed to help the weaker ones so they can be stronger, too?

Tom wrote:
Apart from being political, the vast islamophobia we witness to-day from people like David Horowitz, Bill O’Reilly, Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, Michelle Malkin, Bruce Bawer (whom I didn't even think Cesar Tort was comfortable being compared with), and millions of others, is, in my opinion, more likely a psychological phenomenon (finding a scapegoat to pick on and use as poison container) than being heroic whistleblowing about a real threat.[/[uote]


Well said. I've lived for 3 years in a multi-cultural neighborhood in Gothenburg with the worst "reputation". What is being said or being written is often an exaggeration of the situation and used by opportunists who like to blame immigrants as the source of all problems. Nowadays I live also in a multi-cultural neighborhood in another town and there's no such thing as islamization or gang wars, or disputes between groups. There are no crosses burned, no degrading graffiti painted, and everyone picks up his own dog shit. There are problems of course, but they don't belong to a particular group or class.

Western culture is full of problems unrelated to the islam or any other minority: Anorexia, drug and alcohol abuse, school bullying, kid dumping at daycare centers, to name a few...

It's easier to blame than to help...

Dennis

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 12:28 pm 
I asked a simple question to both of you - have you read the article and the replies? - and didn't get but claims that Bawer has been refuted. This suggest to me that you guys left the "room" when the wrong attorney spoke (precisely the problem of living in Nordic countries according to Bawer and some of the Swedes who commented on the article: unlike the US, the other side is never actually listened to). I on the other hand have listened to both sides; for instance, all the book reviews, pro and con, Bawer got in Amazon for While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within, in addition to reading it and other books & critical book-reviews on all of them.

When you guys do your homework let me know.

Otherwise this discussion reminds me very strongly my old communist friends in Mexico who hadn't read neither Solzhenitsyn nor Popper, Koestler, Kolakowski, Castoriadis or even our own countryman, a winner of the 1990 Nobel prize for literature, Octavio Paz, because, my commie friends claimed, "most of their statements are proven false".


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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Why don't you answer my questions first? And why doesn't Bawer correct his false findings? And why do you compare me with a communist?

Dennis wrote:
And how does an inferior psychoclass defeat a superior psychoclass? Isn't that against all natural laws, and against the statistical graphic you showed? Isn't a superior psychoclass there to help the inferior ones? Aren't stronger people supposed to help the weaker ones so they can be stronger, too?


Dennis

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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2009 3:50 pm 
Actually since I have listened to both sides (for instance, I read all critical Amazon book-reviews on Bawer's book), the only reasonable way to engage in any sort of discussion with another member of the "Juror" is to insist whether or not s/he has indeed listened to *both* sides of the debate. It would be extremely surreal, not to say irrational, to do any discussion without making sure of that. (Likewise, have you guys read the letters-to-the-editor by the Scandinavians who agreed with Bawer's article "While Sweden Slept"?)

Homework first. Then, and only then, I come back to discuss Islam in this forum...


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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 10:22 am 
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That article by Bruce Bawer is one of the worst articles I've read in a long time. This guy does not check his sources and does not verify them with independent sources. He doesn't even mention them. His opportunistic way of trying to present a picture of threats must surely appeal to those who already have a dislike towards immigrants.

To just focus on one paragraph:

Dissent is powerfully discouraged.
In which country is dissent powerfully ENcouraged? But Sweden doesn't send its dissents to Siberia. There's plenty of open debate.

In Sweden, whose murder rate is currently twice that of America
False, the amount of murder in Sweden in the year 2000 was 2 per per 100,000
population (including unintended murder) (Source). Currently the murder rate in the USA lies just above 5 per per 100,000 population (From 10 during the early 1980s) (source)

and where Muslims now constitute over 10% of the population
False. The number of immigrants in Sweden lies at 10 percent, but that include ALL immigrants. And all immigrants are not Muslim. The largest group of immigrants are about 190,000 Finnish and you can see the largest groups here. Even immigrants from Islamic countries such as Iraq don't have to be automatically Muslim. Some of them are Christian (part of the reason they fled the country).

and are disproportionately unemployed and prone to violence,
I wonder why, when many project their prejudice onto them. Self-fulfilling prophecies... You behave the way you are treated. Instead of generalizing groups and shaming them, there's a lot to be improved on integration, but integration must work on both levels (sides). But you can also say that the far majority of immigrants are not unemployed and are not criminals.

And from another paragraph:

but in all of Sweden, they appear to have been published only in a daily newssheet that is distributed free on the subways.
Metro is one of the largest and most read newspapers in Sweden. First time I see a newspaper being referred to as a "newssheet". But Metro is only available in larger cities at many public places and the public transportation system.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2009 10:57 am 
Well, at least you read the article.

Some of your countrymen agreed with Bawer's overview nonetheless. I could cut and paste their letters to the editor here, but no. Whatever the stats, the main point in the article is that Swedes live in a Matrix where only one side of the political debate is known. If you or Tom want to know the other side, read While Europe Slept in addition to a quarter of the *positive* book-reviews in Amazon (just as I read the Spanish translation of the book and all the *negative* book reviews). As I said, the only way to have a sane discussion on why due to demographics, treason and appeasement Europe will become Eurabia by the end of the century is to share some basic prosecutor vs. attorney knowledge.

P.S. If you don't have the motivation of educating yourself in this most important subject, at least watch what Pat Condell's says about Islamization in YouTube.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 8:23 pm 
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Cesar,

I haven't much more than glanced at this thread but wanted to tell you in case you visit it again: I had reason the other day to look at the Wikipedia article on the trauma model of mental disorders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauma_model_of_mental_disorders and got the idea that you were its primary author. I think you need thanked for that effort.

I'd never seen the deMause "evolution" graph before though I knew that's basically what he was looking at. Certainly cause for optimism. Not rest, though, it seems. At any rate, it's NICE to know that screwed up as things appear and are, actually, that at least a few people aren't entirely asleep.

thank you,
Steve


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:47 pm 
Thanks, Steve, for your appreciation.

Yes: I started the article and back in 2006 I had to fight a lengthy Wikipedia arbitration process to defend such anti-psychiatric articles. Besides the trauma model article, the graph also appears in the Psychohistory article. Bookish/BB (who has posted under diverse names here) elaborated the color version of the graphic.

The problem with the graphic is that it is obsolete. DeMause has written a lot about what he calls "growth panic". When very prosperous, whole civilizations sacrifice their children because of (his theory goes) unconscious and unsolved guilt for their prosperity. However, deMause has yet to view present-day dismaying birth rates due to abortion and anticonceptives among native Europeans as a postmodern sort of this sacrifice. This is why some people are concerned that Muslims might take over in a few decades, precisely because of their comparatively healthier birth rates. A thorough Islamization in Europe would mean more of wife beating, honor killings, sending children to Madrasses, etc. In my book I address this issue, which, I am sorry to say, looks like an abrupt fall of the socializing psycho-class in deMause's graphic. (His graph ends in the 20th century while I am deeply concerned about a regression to more primitive forms of childrearing in the 21st and 22nd centuries due to demographics in the Islamist population.)

This is also why I believe that under present circumstances Dan Mackler's advice to the members of his psycho-class to have zero kids, if taken seriously, would be extremely dangerous, not to say seditious and suicidal. As an Amazon book-reviewer of While Europe Slept put it, "Right now the europeans are selling their grandchildren into dhimmitude (slavery to Muslims) in exchange for not being called a racist."

Let me add in this thread about a "failed order" that I believe that we guys should be fully aware of the socio-political situation if we are to defend the child cause realistically for our children and grandchildren.


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 3:55 pm 
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Cesar,

I think it's gonna be okay. Not to say there's nothing to worry about. I just have a good feeling, overall. Long-term, even medium-term. The fight all along has been between freedom and bondage, truth and lies. It's a damned hard thing to trust human beings. It's damned easy to argue that we don't deserve trust. We've been trading one type of false freedom for another for so long that it's easy to argue that we don't know what real freedom looks like. But I think real freedom is there and I think too much of it has slipped out of the box to do anything but keep on spilling out. I think that's what I love most. The fact that it's beyond 'control'. No one's in charge or 'directing' it. How could real freedom possibly be directed? The only 'leaders' are any everyday, ordinary, flawed person who shows courage in the face of obvious evil. And these people do exist. (I don't consider myself one of them, yet; I haven't done much besides talk.) But whether they admit it or not (it's true that most still don't), it's inconceivable to me that every human being alive doesn't on some level recognize that "owning" someone else is immoral.

Girlfriend texting me. gotta go. Keep yelling!!

Steve


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:47 pm 
It's bothering that this site has been hacked recently. I can think of no usual suspects. Is there a computer/internet magician who used to post here but became upset for something (I'm a newbie instead)? How weird...

Anyway, today's entry in my blog is titled "Why I said bye bye to (pseudo) readers of Alice Miller".


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:08 am 
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Cesar, I suppose not many if not anyone takes your bigotry posts about the Islam seriously and therefore you come back to this forum with your usual provocations that may evoke a reaction. They have a name for people like you: Trolls. Your claim of "Swede girls are being raped by immigrants every day" and holding me personally responsible for that is evidence that you're not well. I already gave you statistics that most crimes are not committed by Immigrants. As a matter of fact, crimes are committed by people who had parents who severely abused and neglected them. And the horrific crime of rape is not exclusively contributed to one religion, one race or one minority. (Catholic priests who rape children are being tolerated by the Catholic community and its church.) You claim to have enlightened yourself with the insights of your childhood, pride yourself that you wrote a revealing autobiography in which you said that you confronted your parents like no other writer ever did. But you also claim that you didn't write much about your father in your book. As a matter of fact, whenever you mention your father in a forum, you call him a very successful musician.

And how many times do you need to say "goodbye" to me and Daniel? What is that all about. And more important, who cares?

As far as the recent hacking of this site (every other day for the last week or so), he/she uses different tactics and different doors to get in. Someone has hired a hacker to screw around with this site.

Dennis

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:21 am 
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From your blog post "An analysis of the limits of Daniel Mackler" a guy in the comments writes:

Quote:
I read both Mackler's and Dennis' forum before lots of people were banned May/June 2009.

(They banned my IP - and possibly others. Not a friendly act. And I was just looking, not touching, even though I wrote an essay about Reich back in March of 2008).


I've never banned anyone in my forum and if someone has problems with registering an account (which is necessary to keep the spammers out) there's a contact form and an email address to contact me. No need to gossip behind the scenes. Mackler and I are not a team. I disagree with some of Mackler's statements and wrote about that on his and my forum. That he now has a "44-page booklet on doing self-therapy" proves he doesn't know therapy. Therapists like to criticize each other and come with the one and only solution to your problems or they offer you any solution. Therapy is about re-educating a person by playing a parental role. No one should be paying for an "enlightened witness" to find relieve for the suffering that you never caused yourself in the first place. In that regard, therapists are cowards dealing with victims instead of the perpetrators.

By the way, 8 August 2008 I did write this:

Quote:
Everyone who has registered but haven't posted a single comment, will be deleted from the Forum after September 1, 2008. If you want to stay registered as a member, all you have to do is write. New members who register after August 8 and haven't posted yet will not be removed.


see: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=236" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did that to remove possible spammers.

Dennis


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:21 am 


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