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Childhood trauma and its consequences
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 Post subject: Sinead or ?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:20 pm 
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Hi,

Wanted to say I'm here, basically, but didn't find anyplace for introductions so took the liberty of starting this topic.

I'm currently subscribed to Barbara R.'s list (ourchildhood) having been intensely interested in the entire business for the last year. Came to Breaking Down the Walls through Dennis' signature link at D. Mackler's site, where I read a fair amount, including the "Dr. Miller and Mrs. Hyde" thread. I realize neither site could be regarded as highly active these days but would like to say it has been encouraging to discover others (from everywhere, really, which is even better for me!) independently arriving at generally most of the same conclusions about the world as I have. "Amazing" may be more apt, as mostly through life I've only run into disagreement.

Really have nothing particular to say beyond that. I would be happy to discuss anything with anyone but don't feel a real need to do so for my sake.

Sinead O'Connor's recent acceptance of a dx of bipolar and its accompanying medication was a bit disheartening, particularly since if I remember the thread right, Dennis wrote somewhere about Sinead reading Miller's books. So it was like a tree falling, for me. It seems clear to me that prevention is where I'd like to put my own energy, hopefully that way heading off a future Sinead or two entirely--nothing broken: nothing hurting and nothing to fix. Though I find myself having nothing but admiration for activists (I mean it sincerely) , legislation--even 'education'--as means of bringing about real change seems to me to be themselves 'parental' and 'poisonous'. Something about that alarms me, particularly when the calls are made from far away. On the other hand, my car has a glovebox full of Jordan Riak's "Plain Talk About Spanking" pamphlets (nospank.net). I intend to continue leaving them everywhere I can think of, as well as handing them to people directly whenever that seems to make sense. I think that in any case there's a great deal of hope. That is, whether I personally try to do anything about it or not, whether I live sixty more years or die tomorrow, I still think it's getting better out there. "On its own", in a way, certainly in spite of the sum of most human effort, including those made by the institutions of Government and Education. I think there might be a huge spontaneous remission going on (early stages and the disease is still well with us but I think the signs are promising)--I just think that for MY own good and for MY own happiness my own best bet (as opposed to going to 'therapy', for instance) is as I am able, to stand up for what's right, try to allow as much of it to happen as soon as possible, and do it mostly or entirely on a local, personal basis.

Steve


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:06 am 
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Hi Steve and welcome to the forum. I didn't know that about Sinead O'Connor being on medication nowadays. When I read her interview back in 1991 I recognized a lot of the same views and opinions and she mentioned Alice Miller and John Bradshaw. And when I read Miller, I also realized Sinead didn't understand it. I know she had at least one suicide attempt after that. That was also part of what I was trying to communicate to Alice Miller in her forum in 2001, that some people are completely confused and alienated after reading her books. Personally I think it's because experiences come to the surface of a time we had no words yet and that is very scary because the intellectual brain (of which we digest books) cannot protect us anymore with denial and theories. That was the main reason why I started reading Janov, after Miller's books, to know where those feelings come from, and that it's safe to feel them. That it's essential to feel them.

But Sinead is or was the only person that I know of that mentioned Alice Miller in an interview, to combat the misconceptions of child abuse. She was there at the right time for me. So was Alice Miller. But if I got to know Alice Miller for the first time in her 2001 forum, I would have never felt the curiosity to read her books.

Steve wrote:
I just think that for MY own good and for MY own happiness my own best bet (as opposed to going to 'therapy', for instance) is as I am able, to stand up for what's right, try to allow as much of it to happen as soon as possible, and do it mostly or entirely on a local, personal basis.


That's a very healthy attitude, I think. That's much of how I try to live my life as well. Even if I would just spend 10 minutes a day on active 'resistance', it makes a huge difference, for me, but also for the occasional individual, who may find it at the right time, at the right place.

Dennis


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:25 pm 
Steve wrote:
I realize neither site could be regarded as highly active these days but would like to say it has been encouraging to discover others (from everywhere, really, which is even better for me!) independently arriving at generally most of the same conclusions about the world as I have.

Hi Steve.

Several people on the forum said "Breaking Down the Wall of Silence" was their favorite book by Alice Miller (me too). However, in the "Alice Miller and Therapy" topic, I mentioned that her focus seems to have become very narrow lately. The most recent title, only available in German, is entirely about readers letters. By comparison "Breaking Down the Wall of Silence" covers a wide range of issues -- the media in denial, wars and dictators (Hitler, Nicolae Ceausescu), religious attitudes to abortion, etc. -- plus -- an Afterword to the paperback edition and 4 appendices. If you plan to spread the word, Steve, I would say it's important to avoid giving the impression that all Miller's books can match up to it. For example, her critiques of psychoanalysis are pretty much a non-issue in today's world.

The media doesn't care anymore about Freudian ideas. Miller's books probably contributed to changing the climate of opinion. Now, the 2 big issues to be confronted are unsupported claims about "genetic predispositions" and the attitude "Drugs are the answer!"

In fact, I would go so far as to say this forum needs to look beyond authors who lost the public's attention years/decades ago and highlight new names -- people who are carrying the message forward today. Because they are the ones who are being interviewed and discussed in the media today. The number of people actively discussing Arthur Janov's work, here, and in the media, reflects the (low) level of public interest in primal therapy.

Steve wrote:
I would be happy to discuss anything with anyone but don't feel a real need to do so for my sake.

I'm sure the forum would liven up if newcomers responded to posts by members who are still active. Several people who were active for a long time gave up and went away because only a very small number of people responded their posts.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:22 am 
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Maybe the media doesn't care about Freudian concepts, but kids on the university are still all over him. They don't teach anyone about Janov or Alice Miller's books (except Miller's first book because it was so intellectual). And Janov's books are still much better than all those 'get better fast' books that are overflowing the book shops.

Also authors nowadays don't have the same power or influence as 15 years ago since Internet came to rise. People absorb a much bigger variety of information, until a degree they cannot absorb anymore.

And when an author does get power, for example JK Rowling, it's because of marketing reasons. Rowlings was hyped with Harry Potter right from the start because the publisher Times Warner owns the media. It was planned. It's hard to see nowadays a writer having the power as Sartre had in the 1960s.

And forums like this aren't popular because of the strong painful feelings it can evoke. Is there any other forum that's more active that also deals with poisonous pedagogy and childhood abuse denial, without siding with parents?

In the coming weeks I'll be working on a new, bigger website and I'll try to pull in other forms of communication, such as film, art and music. Once we have enough members, we can have regular contributions in the form of a column / blog post where current situations are being described, from different countries. We need to move from a theoretic attitude towards a practical attitude.

Regarding older members who haven't returned. What Cesar did to Phil, I can understand he gave up on forums. And Cesar turned 180 degrees around and built high walls to protect himself from his pain, and attacking me and Daniel without any direct reason.

Dennis


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:09 am 
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Regarding older members who haven't returned. What Cesar did to Phil, I can understand he gave up on forums. And Cesar turned 180 degrees around and built high walls to protect himself from his pain, and attacking me and Daniel without any direct reason.

I was really quite shocked by Cesar's attitude and the insults he hurled at anyone and everyone. I have to admit I didn't read everything in the threads where he posted torrents of words, so I don't know what he did to Phil in particular. In fact I'm surprised you haven't removed some of his more inflamatory posts like "Europeans are still Neanderthals." It seemed to me Cesar was using your forum like a cuckoo's nest. I mentioned before that a few threads where he was very active are receiving a huge number of visitors, which makes me think he linked to them from other places on the 'net.

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Maybe the media doesn't care about Freudian concepts, but kids on the university are still all over him. They don't teach anyone about Janov or Alice Miller's books (except Miller's first book because it was so intellectual). And Janov's books are still much better than all those 'get better fast' books that are overflowing the book shops.

I've seen no evidence that university psychology courses give much space to Freudian concepts. Not now, not ever. Before cognitive and evolutionary models took over it was the opposite view - "behaviorism" - which dominated. Behaviorists believed hereditary factors counted for nothing and 'conditioning' by pedagogues was the important factor. Emotions, feelings and dreams (fireflysun.com) were mostly ignored. Now, in the same offices of the same universities evolutionary psychologists are sitting behind the desks.

Who mentioned 'get better fast' books? Not me.

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Also authors nowadays don't have the same power or influence as 15 years ago since Internet came to rise.

Maybe the gap between bestselling authors and the rest has become wider, but I don't believe the majority of the population have switched from books to online reading material. Amazon became a big success story by selling books. I also visit forums which discuss environmental problems -- Peak Oil, global warming, the biodiversity crisis, overpopulation, etc. Bestsellers on those issues are often quoted word-for-word. It's true that the issues we talk about here seldom appear in the bestseller lists.

Quote:
In the coming weeks I'll be working on a new, bigger website and I'll try to pull in other forms of communication, such as film, art and music. Once we have enough members, we can have regular contributions in the form of a column / blog post where current situations are being described, from different countries.

I'm not sure how changing the content will attract people who want to avoid painful feelings, but I hope it works.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:08 am 
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Thanks Dennis,

Sinead's Oprah interview is here:
http://www.oprah.com/health/coping/disorder/slide/20071004/slide_20071004_350_101.jhtml

I passed out about eight "Plain Talk About Spanking" pamphlets tonight at a neighborhood meeting (I'm in a 'bad' neighborhood), with just a few words. Also left four or five more in book and information racks at the community center in which the meeting was held. People can argue biological predisposition all they want.

Suggestion: If on this or your new site if you'd like more people to say hello and become involved, would dedicating a forum/sub-forum for just that purpose make sense?

Steve


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:26 pm 
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Steve, being actively against this injustice we write about, is important. It's not a big effort to leave a flyer somewhere, still it scares a lot of people of doing. A fear connected of speaking out, of fighting back. The rebellious child is always punished the hardest. This is also the reason why I started this website. It's not my job, but a small effort to keep me from staying silent.

I'm the chairman in a local neighborhood association in a 'bad' neighborhood as well. But a 'bad' neighborhood in Sweden is quite a joke if I compare it with my 'home country' Holland or the US. Steve, in which part of the world is your neighborhood?

I've read the Sinead O?Connor interview and coincidentally I saw the trailer of that show here on TV yesterday. When I read it, I thought how typical is this actually in our world. Someone discovers the abuse they suffered, speaks out, and meets a world of resistance. So Sinead didn't feel encouraged to continue the road of integrating her pain. She still admits that her Bipolar Disorder is not something she was born with but a result of the violence she grew up with. We have a member of this forum who is a good therapist in Ireland, and I think I'll mention this to her.

The other guy diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder who was mentioned in the Oprah show, looks even more confused. His wife said: "Chris's anger is also an issue at home. "It's just hard never knowing what mood he's gonna be in. The violent temper tantrums. Verbal abuse."

In the working class you're called an asshole or wife-abuser. In the higher classes, you're diagnosed with 'Bipolar Disorder', and label it a disease (so you don't have to take responsibility, but medication).

A new subforum for activism is something we can have. We already started thinking of a paper journal, which lead to a book. CC (another member of this forum) and I have started on a book that will contain 10 short stories, 10 articles and 2 interviews and will be called Breaking Down Walls of Silence. More info will be presented on the new site. I can also think of having people spread photographs, such as the one I made on the front page of this site, at the bottom. I think I will call that subforum: The 10-minute-a-day resistance program.

DRB, Cesar had his own website and a private forum that I set up for him. That forum was closed and invisible for everyone, except for the members who were chosen, like me and Phil. Cesar changed his forum I don't know how many times since and I hadn't visited it for 2 months, just to find it back with the previous private forum, completely open and visible to the public, without communicating a single word about it to me or Phil. And the worst was that Cesar didn't think there was anything wrong with that and I had to send several emails to force him to do something about it (which he partially did eventually). I can see the causes of Cesar's behavior but he has raised high walls around him, literally, by describing his 'castle' and showing pictures of enormous castles and dark skies. And he said on his forum that he wants to kill 6 billion people. If that isn't (child) abuse, then what is?

But I don't like to censor people's words, as long as there's communication.

According to statistics in Sweden, people read less books every year (but apparently buy more books --> maybe out of guild of not reading). Among the young people, it's even worse, especially guys.

I just want to open some more windows with the new site, so people can be interested in one, and being pulled in towards another. I also like to see advertisement campaigns where we buy space in a paper to counterstrike the pharmaceutical propaganda and media conservatism.

During the coming days, this site can be offline now and then as I'm changing server...

Dennis


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:31 pm 
Steve wrote:
People can argue biological predisposition all they want.

And they're winning.

The people in question are: The media, psychiatrists, psychologists and Big Pharma. And quite a few therapists have fallen for the 'genetic predispositons' line too. Among celebrities it isn't just Sinead O'Connor who settled for medications. In another post on the forum, Torturing babies in the name of science, there's a quote about J.B. Watson's granddaughter, actress Mariette Hartley:

Quote:
Grandaughter Mariette... Went through therapy and appears from her biography to be living a reasonbly successful, healthy life.

But a few years after her biography was published she became an advocate of medications.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/spo ... rley_x.htm

Quote:
Mariette Hartley, whose family has a history of suicide because of bipolar disorder, has found a balanced treatment. ... ... Hartley has been hired by GlaxoSmithKline, manufacturers of a medication recently approved by the FDA for bipolar disorder, to let people know that their lives can return to balance if diagnosed and treated appropriately.

Dennis:
That's awful what Cesar did with his forum. Sure, it's your priviledge to decide which posts to keep. I just think it might make a bad impression with first-time visitors. I don't know if there are online statistics about book reading country-by-country, but I don't doubt what you say about Sweden. I like the sound of "The 10-minute-a-day resistance program."


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:29 am 
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Quote:
And they're winning.


DRB:
Colloquialisms might be risky in an international forum, but

it ain't over til the fat (bald?) lady sings

Seriously, yeah that's scary, the lead they have. But for me it's less scary than a year ago when it seemed I was the only person in the world who thought so. Didn't even then there was another team. Didn't know about people like Loren Mosher, or all the people outraged about the unbelievable tidal wave of ADHD dx's--or whatever they're trying to call it now. All I'd see would be NAMI billboards pronouncing "Mental illness is biologically based". And NAMI "fact" sheets printed in the newspaper whenever something happened locally--such as a hospital psych ward shutting down. (There is a local shortage of psychiatrists. I've heard it's a widespread trend. I know other specialties may be more lucrative, but could it be also just that fewer people are willing to swallow the company line?) So I'm encouraged, that end. On the other end it's good as well: everyday people nowhere near any academic side of things just having the courage to stand up and not let evil happen when they see it. Social pressure is huge in terms of prevention, anyway, and those not broken won't need fixed. I left college, by the way, without a degree because what I saw going on there made me literally so nauseated that I finally decided it'd be better to eat dirt (which I have, quite a while for that matter) than to keep flipping those people bucks for the right to say I'd "improved" myself. Nothing would satisfy me more than to see the answer coming from outside the citadel. Basically, I mean. All due respect to those within it that have managed somehow to keep from shoving their heads completely up their you-knows, or having it done for them.

The Mariette Hartley article was interesting and yeah, typical. Wasn't familiar with Watson but checked him on Wikipedia.

Dennis:
I think we agree that not staying silent is huge. I'll add that nice as the Internet is, face-to-face real life is where I think me making noise counts the most, it's where I expect to put most of my effort. You absolutely have my best wishes, however.

I'm in what's called the "midwestern" part of the US (it's actually east of the mid-point), generally prosperous with a greater and greater disparity between the affluent and the down-and-outs, like so many other places. As an adult I've generally lived and worked in areas mainly closer to the latter class--by choice, largely.

Here, I'd say everybody and their brother can be diagnosed as bipolar. Economics doesn't play a role. Look at somebody wrong and you've "got" it. Of course, if someone somewhere in your family has already been diagnosed--and since it's "genetic"--bingo it's what you've got too! I've heard of kids who've been on Ritalin their whole lives having had their dx's switched to bipolar at age 18 (because they're still not "fixed"). Here's a link to an article by David Healy, who I think is one of the good guys. In fact, I think I read the pharmaceutical companies twisted the University of Montreal's arm, making them go back on an agreement they'd made to give him a position there. Very long article--I haven't read the whole thing myself--but if interested, scroll down and look at the first couple paragraphs of "The Bipolar Future". If that doesn't prove the point that people who have managed to stay awake have to stand up and SAY something--that too many of these experts we are expected to trust are simply highly trained, intelligent, blind idiots--nothing will.

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030185

nice talking, thanks for the chance, gotta go, Steve


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 Post subject: P.S.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:31 am 
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Dennis, that be fantastic if somehow Sinead could be successfully helped. Steve


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:25 am 
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Steve, how sad it is to think you felt so alone in your thoughts and views a year ago. That says a lot of our 'objective' media and press, doesn't it. I know that some editors have been forced writing a more positive article after a journalist had written something really critical on the industry (whatever it is). Basically the big boys in the media won't publish or have very critical articles because they make money and don't need a controversy that might lead to a drop of readers. The middle big boys don't do it either, because they want to climb up and don't want to lose any sponsors and advertisers. The smaller ones also are hesitant by mentioning something bad of the pharmaceutical industry out of fear of being sued. What remains is the independent small press who have a group of loyal subscribers, but they are disappearing fast the last years. So thank god for internet, providing at least some various sides of everything, if you know where to find it. The truth can spread fast, like a virus, once it's bare and exposed.

Real contact is better in many ways, so don't give up on that. I won't give up on it either, and the effort I make with this website is only a small part of the things I do.

I'll read the article by David Healy later. It's not too long though.

DRB, regarding Cesar's provocative posts, it's up to the visitor to read them. As long as no personal insults or threats are made, I can tolerate provocation, if it's not being repeated. But the problem I got with Cesar was, that he stopped discussing his ideas and wasn't listening anymore.

I have changed host by the way and the move went smooth. I tried installing phpbb 3.0 but that didn't work out so well yet so that has to wait.

Dennis


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:51 am 
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Dennis,
DRB isn't exaggerating--the other "point of view" has a huge lead. Most people I know and care about subscribe to it. Trauma is almost always of course given at least some "credit", though it too often to me seems to fall into an almost "lip-service" category. As an abject layman there's not much I can say to sway anyone's opinion so far as a "better way", though--in fact I really don't have any advice on how to best "fix" broken people. I can't tell them what to do "instead" of taking their meds. My impression is that even the best and most "enlightened" among us are largely still groping practically in the dark, far as fixes. It would be nice to find out I'm wrong, but that's my impression. The advice I'm following for myself is just to keep doing whatever I can to try to stop people from hurting kids in the first place. I don't know. Seems like a rational way for me to work out my own rage about the stupidity in the world in a positive way. I have hopes that I'll make my own life better in the process, but all I really know is that I can't sit around doing nothing about it, can't keep silent without blowing a gasket. One and one makes two and I need to get out, look people in the eye and just say so.

But I don't think me feeling alone with my view should be that much of a surprise. So much has been taboo about the subject for so long. And I think most people live in ways that let them avoid thinking about it. I think I put off doing the arithmetic as long as I could myself, simple as it is, until I had no other choice.

This might be better placed in a new thread, but it's something I need more just to have said something to somebody about than to discuss, necessarily. Ran into it last night. Kind of a lot here. I've looked at the first of two Powerpoint presentations, but far as I can see the whole idea is about calling trauma by it's name, showing the tremendous damage done when the facts are ignored and denied. There's a page worth of professionals heaping praise on it; far as I'm concerned that's nothing but good news.

http://www.annafoundation.org/index.html

Steve


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:44 am 
Hi Steve,

I think Dennis is right. Media doesn't write about these issues, less than they have earlier. I think it's a backlash everywhere in society. And that's why Miller is less spoken about too.

So I think there are reasons to speak about her, but also of others with similar messages, new-comers, as D.R.B. writes. New-comers entering this topic from different angles.

But has she (Miller) developed a "desillusionism"? Maybe of these reasons: the Societal denial?

There are reasons to spread this knowledge everywhere one can, in different forms!?

Thank you for the tip.

Karin
PS. D.R.B., have you seen that there was 45 visitors on the forum Nov. 11, so people ARE reading without writing!?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:01 pm 
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Thank you for this.....both moving and disturbing powerpoint presentation. I has been healing for me to see it.

_________________
Clare


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:08 pm 
Karin:

I wonder how many of those 45 visitors went directly to posts that Cesar linked to?

Steve:

I came across the David Healy saga via the Wikipedia Biopsychiatry Controversy article.

In the 1980s Alice Miller was writing critiques of psychoanalysis, along with Jeffrey Masson and quite a few others. It's amazing how quickly the psychiatric establishment dropped it like a hot potato. By the mid-1990s Freudian ideas were consigned to history. A success story for Alice Miller, among the many. The Oedipus Complex is long forgotten. Psychoanalysis was a 'nice little earner' for psychiatrists, but Big Pharma didn't have a stake in it. Bio-psychiatry, by contrast, leads to multi-billion dollar profits. So it will be more difficult to oppose.

The main obstacle I see is that resitance against bio-psych is mainly via the internet. I think only a small proportion of the general public look for that kind of reading material online. As Dennis pointed out, print media journalists are under pressure not to antagonize big budget advertisers.

You mentioned a shortage of psychiatrists. I too have read about widespread unfilled vacancies all over Europe as well as America. Maybe that's the way Big Pharma will be forced to back down on meds-for-minds. They won't go out of business, because there are real diseases which need properly formulated pharmaceutical products. Bogus 'chemical imbalances' of the mind are a just a scam to generate HUGE profits out of small research expenditures.

What fired me up in that advertorial for GlaxoSmithKine was that it said Mariette Hartley's family had a suicide history because of 'bipolar disorder'. What!!! On Mariette Hartley's website there's a collection of reviews of a stage show she performed, based on her biography. It's clear from the reviewers' words that the legacy of J.B. Watson's child-rearing methods were the cause of her mother's problems and Mariette's problems. A 'bipolar' diagnosis brushes all that aside as irrelevant. Going into denial the scientific way.

http://www.mariettehartley.com/7.html

Dennis wrote:
As long as no personal insults or threats are made, I can tolerate provocation, if it's not being repeated.

Well, he was quite insulting to Bookish (Kerry from the UK?) in "Bookish's betrayal", so I wouldn't be surprised if Bookish/Kerry never comes back. After all, Cesar was at fault by soliciting Meatpuppets, which is against the wiki-rules.


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